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msparks378 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 3:08pm
What caulks or sealants are compatible with Cetol?   I purchased an older boat with teak toe rails finished beautifully with Cetol natural.  However, I need to seal the deck/rail edge.   The PO sealed the edge with a caulk that is drying, cracking and failing and I need to re-seal it.

Any advice?

Thank you,

Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2014 at 8:56am
Sorry this is so long in coming. We've had a lot of personnel changes - hopefully we'll get caught back up soon!
Any marine-grade caulk that does not contain silicone should be fine. This would include any polyurethane or polysulfide (3M 5200, 3M 4200, LifeCaulk, 3M 101, etc). Avoid household latex/acrylic caulks. They just won't hold up well enough on a boat exterior.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote msparks378 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2014 at 9:20pm
Jeremy - Thanks for getting back to me.   I tried Life-Caulk, which is a polysulfide with poor results.   The caulk is cracking and pulling away.  On the Boat Life website - they say "Not compatible with all paints, Sikkens, Cetol, Deks, Olje."   So, before I dig out the mess and start over, I posted here on the forum.  Are you sure any other polyurethane or polysulfide will work?  

Thank you!

Michael

PS - I'm glad you guys are responding again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 9:19am
I've seen that happen before - the reason is the looong cure time for polysulfides (sometimes up to 2 weeks depending on weather). Applying finishes over them before the full cure can cause all sorts of issues. So, let's take polysulfides out of the equation (especially as, I'm fairly certain 3M 101 Marine Sealant has been discontinued - please fact-check if I'm mistaken). The options left would be:
SikaFlex 292 (mostly used to caulk teak decks)
3M 4000UV (I'd go with this - good all-around caulk)
3M 5200 (if you never, ever want to take it apart!)
These are uretahanes. I think the 4000UV probably has the fastest cure time, and it's removable later on if you need to re-fit/maintain an area. It's also available in white or black.
Hope this helps - Thanks-
Jeremy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote msparks378 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2014 at 11:55am
Jeremy - one last question - I am going to apply new Cetol to the toe rail, dig out the old cracking caulk and reseal. What order is best?  Cetol first and then caulk or caulk first and then cetol?

Thanks!!   Glad you guys are back and answering questions...

Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2014 at 5:23pm
Either way will work, but it is less likely to crack or peel if you caulk last. Also looks a little "crisper" as you don't see the color of the Cetol over it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skipgundlach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2016 at 5:14am
Originally posted by wrote:

Sorry this is so long in coming. We've had a lot of personnel changes - hopefully we'll get caught back up soon!
Any marine-grade caulk that does not contain silicone should be fine. This would include any polyurethane or polysulfide (3M 5200, 3M 4200, LifeCaulk, 3M 101, etc). Avoid household latex/acrylic caulks. They just won't hold up well enough on a boat exterior.

I used 3M 4000UV to caulk my teak toe rail both at the deck and the outside.

It has failed miserably:

Makes a wet residue after rain or washing with plain water, sometimes
feeling about like freshly laid caulk

Peels off in strips, or

Falls off in chunks [segments of the caulk line, complete]

Crazes and chalks, and

perhaps others related to cleaning with water (only) which I don’t recall,
as the admiral does that.

I called the tech support desk; that guy gave me the number for the head
technical guy at 3M; every call resulted in being directed to voice mail,
however.

An extensive conversation, at long last after chasing each other around
missing each other, with 3M's head tech guy, Todd Jessen, established:

My preparation (remove all old caulk, light sand in the chamfered opening I
cut into it for deeper penetration into any gaps under the toe rail, blow
out, scrub with acetone and allow to dry, tape toe rail and deck/hull) was
as good as it gets

Application was perfect (caulk, immediately tool with caulk tool, lift
tape) - I had two people helping in order to do all this while it was fresh)

Cure time and environment was appropriate.

After which, he admitted that they had had a "formulation problem" with
4000UV that they were still trying to sort out.

He said, but has walked back that offer, that he'd provide a form for me to
take to allow a merchant to be reimbursed, and that I should redo it with a
competitor's product.

A variety of emails have passed, attempting to pin him down as to what we
should do about that.  He's understandably reluctant to do that, but He
wasn't specific as to what to buy, other than saying he thought Sika had a
good product for that application.

But the fact that he told me not to go back with new 4000UV, free or not,
that they were still working out kinks in the formulation, says volumes.

That I've seen exactly my complaint in many places merely confirms that I am
neither alone, nor inadequate in my use of the product.  That he'd go to the
length of telling me to buy a competitive product is honorable in the
extreme, but I'm a bit surprised that he didn’t leap on the chance to have
me present a good-fer (not even a mosquito on an elephant's butt in the
scheme of things for 3M) to make the ultimate tone of this a bit sweeter
("3M Tech Support Rocks!  Details at 11!)

So, when we again reach shore, we'll be digging out all that soggy or
brittle stuff, and starting over with something else. At this time, the
'something else' is under review, as not much of anything sounds good or
without problems for the application we have (sealing a fiberglass-to-teak
joint).

L8R

Skip

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote msparks378 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2016 at 9:20pm
Skip - What did you use and how are the results?   I too used the 3M 4000V.   For 3  months or so it worked great but I ended up with the same drying, cracking seal that I get with the life caulk.   I'm ready to try again.

Michael
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skipgundlach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2016 at 5:50am
I went through an extensive tech discussion with TDS regarding their SIS-440; as they are specialists in teak, that's the way I decided to go.  I have not returned to the boat since my post and am still on the road so can't comment about its ease of use, though it should be just fine.

The head tech at 3M sent me a couple of tubes of something else (different 2) to try, but I can't imagine where I'd try them as that's not nearly enough to do the job I have at hand.  Having been severely burned on the toe rail, I'm also a bit skittish to use them for anything else.

It will likely take a case (based on the TDS guy's estimate) to do my toe rail.  However, it DOES say that they are trying to help me resolve the issue.  But the fact that they have not withdrawn the 4000UV, knowing they have a problem, is flabbergasting to me.

Life Caulk is a direct replacement to 101, but they are requiring, now, based on the tech discussion with the Boat Life rep, two extra steps in cleaning and prep.  If I hadn't had all the time with the TDS guy, likely that's what I would have used.

Sika sent me bug letter #2 and instantly got on my dump list, as further followup merely referred me to data sheets.

A few other not-marine products were mentioned in other forums, including some from down under.  Those MIGHT work, but I'm not willing to experiment.  The removal and reapplication, both from our having added netting (a several day chore for application, and no assurance that if we took it off it would go back in the same way) on the inside, and having to do it from a boat rather than scaffolding on the ground in the yard, is daunting to say the least.

So, I have neither bought nor put on the Teak Decking Systems stuff.  But I have every confidence, as that is the very heart of what they do (teak to fiberglass), that it will work.  Cost is similar to the others; I don't know if I will get any break by getting it direct, or, perhaps, lose any price advantage that a discounter might offer.  But for sure, I'd get not-date-short-lifed tubes, whereas, I've learned from anecdotal experience from others, if you use a past-date-life tube, it will bite you.

Thus, the 3 tubes of 795 I bought to do ports, but mistakenly grabbed the 4000UV from the same box when I did, probably are ready to toss despite having never been opened.  And the half-dozen tubes of 101 I ALSO found in my spares locker, being at least 10 years old, likely are worse than useless.

Caveat emptor on dated caulks, whatever it is you use, for whatever purpose.

Hope that helped.

L8R

Skip, currently traveling to the 15 grandchildren
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote msparks378 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2016 at 2:16pm
Skip - Anything new on the caulk selection and testing? 

thanks,

Michael
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